The screen shot above is from a question I posed to a pro-choice “c”atholic on another blog site. You can visit her blog here. In trying to promote a form of dialogue, I’ve invited her to this blog to view my rebuttal of her answer. Although she doesn’t really go into full detail, what she does mention raises several red flags in her understanding of the truth of the Catholic Faith. I sincerely hope that my rebuttal causes her to rethink some of her presumptions and forces her to look more intensely at Catholic teaching.
Where do you find scriptural, traditional or doctrinal works that defend both your pro-abortion stance and your assumption of being a catholic? Are there some scriptures that you can demonstrate that show that the Catholic Church is/was pro-choice?
Not so much of the Catholic Church but actual scripture from the BIBLE.
Right off the bat, she is attempting to justify a personally held belief by simply using scripture as the only form of authority. While this is useful in understanding Christianity, what she fails to understand is that as a Catholic, there are two other forms of authority that we hold to be true; that being, the Magisterium, i.e. the teaching authority of the Catholic Church as well as Apostolic Tradition. The Catholic Church is the ONLY Christian denomination that uses these 3 sources of authority and, it is precisely because we have 3 sources of authority that the Catholic Church is considered to be so traditional, so conservative or so “stuck in the mud.” Additionally, it is because of these authoritative sources that the Catholic Church can proclaim and teach what She teaches; we also have something that other Christian churches don’t, that is, we have the pedigree that demonstrates our direct link (via Apostolic Succession) to St. Peter and thus to Christ Himself.
Since none of these sources of authority can ever disagree – they are after all inspired by the Holy Spirit – the only way that this “c”atholic feminist can rationally substantiate and validate that being pro-abortion is acceptable for any Catholic, is by her also citing any of the Early Church Fathers who taught towards abortion as well as doctrinal evidence that the Catholic Church supports her claim in addition to using the Bible as well. Alas, she cannot do this, instead she will attempt to quote a passage of scripture and try to squeeze out her personal point of view. For more information on the Catholic Church and Her authority, click here.
“If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [Hebrew: “so that her child comes out”], but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot” (Ex. 21:22–24).
Bible passages like works of art can look from different ways…
Let’s just stop here for a second. What she is saying here is that the Bible is open to ALL forms of interpretation, unfortunately for her, the Catholic Church – the Church she claims to be a member of – says something a little different. CCC #111 states, there are 3 criteria in order properly interpret Scripture: 1) you have to be attentive to the content, 2) read the Scripture in light of Church Tradition and 3) to be “Be attentive to the analogy of faith,” which basically means that there must be an agreement of spiritual truths that conform to God’s design and His purpose. Unfortunately, she misses the mark on all 3 criteria! #1 – she doesn’t read this passage within its proper context; it is plain to see that this passage is simply describing Mosaic Law and Justice, not the right to an abortion. I challenge ANYONE to read the whole of Chapter 21 of Exodus and demonstrate how abortion is justified! #2 – Where in the 2,000 year history is there ever any mention of the “right” to willfully chose to abort a child? Where in the writings of the Apostolic Fathers do they ever, even remotely, suggest that a woman has a right to chose whether or not she wants to be a mother? Show me whole and entire documentation please, not selective sections of writings! Lastly, #3 – How exactly is the God of Life, the God that sustains us and nurtures us, the same God who knew our name from our formation in the womb, how is it that this God who creates is somehow reconcilable with the deliberate action of ceasing the continuation of life?
This is diametrically opposed to who and what God is, it is so counter to the nature of God that this premise alone could negate the existence of the Holy Trinity as we know it! So, there you have it, you can either chose to look at SELECTIVE BIBLE PASSAGES as “a work of art” or, you can read it WITHIN ITS PROPER CONTEXT and in its entirety and fully understand what God expects of you.
…but I feel this is a sign that if you take a woman’s right to have children or not, you are dealt with harsh consequences.
No, this is stating that life must be protected, why else would there be a penalty if a woman has a miscarriage due to violence? This passage is dealing with the unintentional act of causing a miscarriage NOT the conscious and intentional destruction of life. Additionally, this is an application of the lex talionis or “"law of retribution" to abortion. The lex talionis establishes the just punishment for an injury, in this case, it is establishing justice for the unintentional act of creating a miscarriage.
Now the Church change their laws several time over two thousands like allowing girls to become alter servers but forbidding women to bless the eucharist (That law is new considering the early Church was controlled by both men and women.)
While the Church does and can change Canon Law by its own authority, I seriously doubt that abortion will pop up anytime soon as acceptable actions that can be done by the laity. Pope John Paul II maintained in his encyclical Evangelium Vitae (“The Gospel of Life”) that the Bible forbids abortion in the same manner that it forbids murder but yet, YOU claim that the Bible permits a woman to chose; so who’s right, the Supreme Pontiff or you? The Catechism (#2270-2275) states clearly that human life is to be respected and protected from the moment of conception and that abortion is a moral evil, Pope Sixtus V, in the late 1500’s, set church teaching that an abortion can get you excommunicated. Hippolytus writing in 222 A.D. stated that women who have an abortion are “lawless,” St. Basil in 374 A.D. states that a woman who deliberately gets an abortion is a murderer, I could go on and on but, I won’t.
The simple fact of the matter is that I can give you mountains of examples to justify the Church’s position but all you have is one simple passage that you took a cursory reading of and, taking it wholly out of context, you try to validate your pro-abortion belief. As a Catholic, the burden of proof is on you, YOU need to show demonstrable evidence that there is room for abortion in the Catholic Church, if you can’t, then why are you even calling yourself a “c”atholic if you can’t conform to its already established doctrines? If YOU can disregard the Church’s teaching on human life, then why not disregard adultery? How about doing away with the Real Presence in the Eucharist? How about we nullify the reading of the Gospel at Mass? You see, once you start to pick and choose what YOU like and what YOU don’t like, you become a schismatic, indeed, if I were to take an educated guess, I’d say you were a pro-abortion Protestant. You also stated that the early church was controlled by both men and women...documentation please.
Another question is whether the Zygote (yes we all started as Zygotes.) is human are not. That is up for debate…
Actually, it’s not. The Catholic Church has followed the explicit instructions handed down to it via Sacred Tradition since the beginning. Look at the Didache, written in the early 1st century, in Chapter 2:2 it reads:
“...you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is begotten.”
That very first statement for the defense of life is the starting point for one reason that the Church views that life begins at conception. Furthermore, the untold truth about this Catholic teaching is that its condemnation of abortion are philosophical and humanitarian, based on the right to life of innocent human beings.
…but Scripture has pointed that we are born with sin, obvisouly original sin. Surely, because of the death of Jesus, we are free from original sin…
This is where I will ask with all sincerity: Are you really a Catholic or a pro-abortion Protestant that is pretending to be Catholic in the hopes that many will believe your heretical lies? The reason why I pose this question to you is for the plain and simple fact that: WE ARE NOT FREE FROM ORIGINAL SIN BECAUSE OF JESUS’ DEATH, we are freed from original sin BECAUSE OF BAPTISM, which washes it away. CCC #1213 states:
“...Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission...”
At #1263 it says:
“By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin…”
So, sorry, but you are mistaken about the nature of Original Sin and the Sacrament of Baptism.
...thus we don’t have to worry about unborn fetuses going to hell because they are with sin because Jesus already saved us.
Looks like you may have to rethink that notion now in light of the fact that Jesus does not “undo” Original Sin, this statement you made makes no sense. If in fact unborn fetuses are with sin but Jesus has already saved them, then how do you explain what happens in 2 Samuel 12:14 where God tells King David that his first born will die because of David’s adulterous and murderous ways? Was this first born child saved by Jesus even though Jesus still hadn’t been born, crucified and died for us yet? Wouldn’t this mean that David’s first born child went to hell? Wouldn’t this also mean that the very first heir of King David – the child who would’ve had as his (or her) birthright the throne of Israel - is, right now, burning in hell because of what his (or her) father did? How is this justified through God’s eyes? I would really like to know how you would answer this.
Moving on, let me ask you yet another question, you made the statement, “Jesus already saved us” does that mean that none of us are going to hell because we’re already saved? Does solely believing in Jesus save us? Or, is it our faith what saves us? If you do believe that Jesus has already saved you then my question to you is this: Are you dead? Because the only way to truly know if you are saved is if you’ve already received eternal life. Are you really sure YOU’RE saved? In Matthew 24:13 Jesus says that Christians must endure to the end for salvation and in Revelation 2:10 Jesus says to be faithful until death, why would Jesus say this if you are already saved? In Philippians 2:12 St. Paul says to “workout your salvation with fear and trembling,” why didn’t he just mention that he was already saved in the same manner that YOU are stating? In 2 Timothy 4:7 St. Paul says that he has fought the good fight and completed the race and HAS KEPT THE FAITH, if he was already saved and he was assured of his salvation, why did he even bother to mention that? After all that St. Paul went through even he didn’t have assurance! How can YOU be so sure that you are saved? If we are indeed saved, then isn’t Satan wasting his time? Why should we bother praying? Why worship? Why go to Church? Still don’t believe me? Then look at what Hebrews 10:26-27 says:
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.
The grace to come to salvation is a free gift. We are to cooperate with that gift in order to attain salvation. Automatically meriting salvation by virtue of faith is a wholly alien concept within Catholicism.
Also, Catholics believe that our bodies are disposable but not our souls.
Clearly, you have never heard of or unaware of the Theology of the Body. You see, the Catholic Church has this crazy view that the human body came from God (crazy right?!?!) and, it is in His image (weird right?). Since it is a creation of God, are you completely certain that it is just simply disposable? Is your body disposable right now? Was Jesus’ body, as it lay in the tomb, disposable? Are all of God’s creations therefore also simply disposable like disposing of a chopped up post-aborted fetus in a trash can? If the body is in fact disposable, then it means nothing, I would suggest to you that the human body means way more than what you think it means. St. Ambrose of Milan contended that the body can be made perfect by chastity and consecration, in this perfect type of body God can will all things as well
Our bodies are a vessel or vehicles for the souls. Hence Catholics are so conscious about bodies because we have to “return to” when Jesus will rise us from the dead but hasn’t he done that already the moment we die, we enter a new life and join Jesus in paradise already?
Once again, you are assuming that YOU are saved and that when we die Jesus rises us up and take us all to heaven. Well, what about purgatory? Or have YOU chosen not to acknowledge this Divinely revealed truth? The assumption that you are saved is not only unbiblical, it goes against what the Church has always taught. Let’s see what the Church Fathers had to say about salvation:
“It is certain that few are saved.” -Saint Augustine
“What I am about to tell you is very terrible, yet I will not conceal it from you. Out of this thickly populated city with its thousands of inhabitants not one hundred people will be saved. I even doubt whether there will be as many as that! -Saint John Chrysostom
“Christ's flock is called "little" (Luke 12:32) in comparison with the greater number of the reprobates.”-Saint Bede the Venerable
“The number of the saved is as few as the number of grapes left after the vineyard-pickers have passed.”-Saint John Mary Vianney
“The number of the elect is so small — so small — that, if were we to know how small it is, we would faint away with grief: one here and there, scattered up and down the world!”-Saint Louis Marie de Montfort
“How few the Elect are may be understood from the multitude being cast out.”-Saint Hilary of Poitiers
So then, the Catholic Church does not teach in automatic salvation based on faith alone, Catholic Tradition holds the same view (as just demonstrated) and, biblically speaking, automatic salvation doesn’t hold water (as demonstrated earlier). How exactly sure are you that YOU are automatically saved and destined for heaven?
Souls enter the body for a period of time and leave the body whenever.
“Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains forever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end. God alone is the Lord of life from its beginning until its end: no one can under any circumstance claim for himself the right directly to destroy an innocent human being.”
I, personally, believe when a baby is born, they receive their soul the moment they take their first breath.
So, in other words, YOUR belief trumps the truth of Divine Revelation? Pray tell, where exactly could we find this belief? Is it biblical? It wouldn’t happen to be from a simple cursory-out-of-context reading of Genesis 2:7 would it? It states:
…the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.
Is this how you are attempting to support your notion that life begins when you draw your first breath? Well, let’s examine this passage within its original and contextual concepts; The Hebrew term used in Genesis 2:7 for breath is “ruach” which, coincidentally, is also the same word for “spirit.” So, what is being said here in the creation narrative is that God not only infuses man with mortal life but spiritual life as well – not from the moment of physical birth but even before that. Hence, even before a physical birth, God has already formed a new life of whom he already knows (Jer.1:5), who He has already “breathed life” into. Thus, to state that life only begins when a child physically breathes - from a biblical stand point is nonsensical and takes away from the Creator the very act of creating perfectly.
They are animated and are now born.
As I’ve demonstrated, children are alive before they are born. If indeed animation is a trait of life – and it is – then when do we see movement in life? Any biology book will tell you that as soon as a sperm fertilizes an egg, it begins to divide, that is, it has movement. So, by your own definition then, could we not state that life truly does begin at conception when the movement of cell division occurs?
But when we die, we have our last breath and release our soul in the air, leaving our bodies behind. Bodies of the dead are called “lifeless” because they took their last breath and their souls have abandon them. A soul is not bound to the body for eternity.
It is plainly obvious that you cannot defend your personally held position of being both pro-choice and Catholic for you fall into too many self-inflicted traps due to your illiteracy of the Catholic faith:
1) You cannot cite any specific Catholic teaching to support your argument for being pro-choice
2) You attempt to legitimize your argument – that a person can be pro-choice and Catholic – on the basis of proof reading 2 verses of Sacred Scripture taken completely out of context and twisted to conform to your liking without ever taking into consideration the proper way of interpreting Scripture.
3) You grossly and obscenely misunderstand simple Catholic truths (i.e. Original Sin, Salvation, Damnation, when life begins) to the point of total ignorance.
Do tell us why we should believe what you believe and do demonstrate to us why the Catholic Church is wrong ONLY AFTER you have a better grasp at what it is that you are trying to attack. As such, without you knowing theological principles behind the teachings of the Catholic Church, you not only have no room in the conversation but, you relegate yourself into idiotic banality.
I pray that you do your homework and really look at the issue and, more importantly, understand the issue from the Catholic Church’s perspective, that is, from the perspective of truth handed down to us from the authority of Christ’s One True Church and not from the ideology of feminism.
No comments:
Post a Comment